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Monday, July 14, 2008

Fire and Ice



A HA HA HAA HA HAA HAAA HA HA HAA HA! A HAAAA HA HA HA HA HAA HA HAA HAAA HA HA HAA HA!! A HA HAAAA HA HA HA HAA HA HAA HAAA HA HA HAA HA HAAA HA!!! A HA HA HAA HA HAA HAAA HA HA HAA HA! A HAAAA HA HA HA HA HAA HA HAA HAAA HA HA HAA HA!! A HA HAAAA HA HA HA HAA HA HAA HAAA HA HA HAA HA HAAA HA!!! A HA HA HAA HA HAA HAAA HA HA HAA HA! A HAAAA HA HA HA HA HAA HA HAA HAAA HA HA HAA HA!! A HA HAAAA HA HA HA HAA HA HAA HAAA HA HA HAA HA HAAA HA!!!

A HA HA HAA HA HAA HAAA HA HA HAA HA! A HAAAA HA HA HA HA HAA HA HAA HAAA HA HA HAA HA!! A HA HAAAA HA HA HA HAA HA HAA HAAA HA HA HAA HA HAAA HA!!!

A HA HA HAA HA HAA HAAA HA HA HAA HA! A HAAAA HA HA HA HA HAA HA HAA HAAA HA HA HAA HA!! A HA HAAAA HA HA HA HAA HA HAA HAAA HA HA HAA HA HAAA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heh.

You're fucking kidding, right?

Holy shit.

D.

24 comments:

Anonymous said...

Ralph Bakshi was pretty bad-ass...even when he lived in his mother's basement.

Dave Kopperman said...

I don't know. His films never seem to hold up - all really amateurish. And the rotoscoping was a BIIIIIIG mistake.

D.

John said...

Walking on some thin fiery ice there...

Mr. A.I.!

Mr. Matrix Reloaded!

I do recall Fire & Ice as being unwatchably bad, but dissing the entire Bakshi ouvre (oov?)... LOTR, Fritz the Cat, American Pop, Cool World, et al...

Ugh. And what's with the bias against rotoscoping? I never understood that... It was Bakshi's whole deal, so deal with it.

JN

John said...

Plus, I doubt the script for Fire and Ice is much worse, overall, than the micromanaged, insipid, and fondued scripts that most big-time filmmakers (like, mmmmm, Spielberg?) greenlight these days... talk about amateurish!

Dave Kopperman said...

The script is by Gerry Conway and Roy Thomas, of all people, and - if anything - it's the worst part of the film. Stunningly inept. Miyazaki could not have saved it.

D.

John said...

Still, it probably edgs out the Hellboy II script. Oh boy... got suckered into seeing an awful movie by the AICN dorks yet AGAIN! They got me AGAIN!!!

Here's hoping the Dark Knight script isn't TOO awful... which, yes, I am going to see around noon on Friday... damnit...

Dave Kopperman said...

I don't know how anybody could be 'suckered' into seeing a mainstream del Toro film, anymore. Unless he suddenly got a major head injury, or someone with some skill stepped in to ghost direct it, it was practically guaranteed to be lame.

I hate those directors - like del Toro, Robert Rodriguez, Tim Burton, and (it's looking like) Frank Miller, that all us geeks are supposed to just LUV, but ultimately are lame stylists who have entire armies of paper-thin characters marching through their resoundingly empty films.

D.

John said...

Well, I went for the visuals, which were supposed to be great, and they were... but the script was so infantile, so confused and barely formed, and worse than the script the PACING was so slow, just deadly in fact, that it canceled out my enjoyment of the creature designs... plus, they forgot to make-up Selma Blair... she looked like shit through the whole film... in addition to the fact she's an awful actress with no script or direction... not a pretty sight...

Dave Kopperman said...

What's really grating on me is that del Toro may be the one tapped to 'direct' the Dr. Strange movie - and the first quote I saw just made me sad, and pissed:

"I said, that's an interesting character because you can definitely make him more in the pulpy occult detective/magician mold and formula than was done in the Weird Tales, for example."

Del Toro warned fans, though, "I wouldn't use the suit!"


Fuck that fat asshole.

D.

Ansley said...

Im with you on Bakshi... totally horrible vibe.. messy.. amateurish..his work always fucking rankled me..

yeah rotoscoping.. horrible..

also with you on del toro and burton.. they both fucking suck donkey dick...

disagree on robert rodriguez.. he's a very competent director.. ever see Planet Terror?

Dave Kopperman said...

Rodriguez may be a good director, but he's just not a very good screenwriter - and, since he's written pretty much every film he's ever directed, I can't separate them out.

I keep hearing alternate reviews of Grindhouse. Some say Planet Terror is genius and Death Proof sucks. Others say the exact opposite. I can sit by, reasonably assured that I would dislike both evenly.

D.

John said...

Not very good? How about awful... These guys have big egos, and have their "visions," which are purely stylistic, as you (Dave), pointed out... Why can't they at least take on a co-writer? Someone to reign them in... of all this crowd, I'd say Tarantino is the best writer... but even he is working at a borderline amatuer/Kevin Smith level... I guess my overall point in this thread is:
A) Lay off Baksi, for F___'s sake! He is a singular American talent, maybe even a genius.
B) Yeah Fire & Ice is awful, but there are so many overly hyped fanboy movies more deserving of scorn, I was kind of taken aback by the impropriety of the post.

Dave Kopperman said...

It's only an impropriety if you happen to disagree - after all, you just managed to insult Spielberg, the Wachowskis, Tarantino, Rodriguez, del Toro and Kevin Smith over the course of your defense of Bakshi. A couple of whom I rather like - and your were aware that this is my blog, yes? You should come here expecting my opinions, not objective fact. You can argue that you disagree with my opinion, but not that my opinion is insulting to you or to Bakshi.

D.

Ansley said...

I really loved both the Grindhouse movies..

anything Bakshi has done is just plain uncomfortable to watch..

American Pop being the only one I can barely get through.. even though I managed to barely get through it a million times when I was a kid.. It was the story and the idea of it that fascniated me more than the horrible overacting rotoscoping badness..

Dave Kopperman said...

My reply to all of this will be tonight's Rambler - was growing out of control.

D.

John said...

It was just such a wierd post, full of seemingly misdirected animosity... like, "Yeah, you had it comin', Fire & Ice, you've had your time atop the animation canon, enjoying your phoney prestige, finally you'll get your due right here, sucker, take THAT!"

What's next, a derision-bomb post for Ice Pirates?

Do you get what I mean? I'd like to know what prompted you to watch Fire & Ice, what were your preconceptions, and just why did you find it so risible (like it was overrated?) instead of merely a depressing waste of time?

Dave Kopperman said...

It would be a depressing waste of time if it were a bunch of nobodies who had made it. Given that it was made by Ralph Bakshi, Frank Frazetta (and to a lesser degree, Conway and Thomas), who are regarded by many to be at the top of their respective fields, then, yes: the stakes are higher, as is the size of the catastrophe.

Did you catch the name of the production group? Take a close look at the poster. That sums it up right there.

D.

Ansley said...

Granted Frazetta is a genius.. but his work never hit me on a gut level..

John said...

Hmmm. Not exactly household names. Even back then. Again... my point... these very odd targets for your derision. I mean, sneer away, it's your blog.

I view a movie like that as more of an interesting artifact, not an Heaven's Gate-type disaster...

Dave Kopperman said...

John: okay, either I should 'Lay off Baksi,[sic] for F___'s sake! He is a singular American talent, maybe even a genius!,' or I should ignore him, because a major failure from Bakshi isn't as important as a failure from Cimino.

Which is it? Let me know, and that's the point I'll argue.

And Frazetta is probably more famous than even CImino - after all, does Cimino have his own museum? I personally don't like Frazetta (always been partial to Vallejo, a mere hair's breadth away, stylistic and in many ways, a slavish imitator), but many, many people regard him as the dean of American Fantasy art.

D.

John said...

No, Bakshi's individual films are not as significant as Cimino's. But overall as an artist, as a groundbreaking influence, he's more significant.

Cimino made one great film (which has problematic story elements, but overall is deserving of it's iconic status). His one big disaster seems to have broken him.

Friedkin is another good example. He made 2 of the most important films of all time, but also made Cruising and Jade, and is now an obsolete B-list director, basically...

Bakshi just always did his thing, it was uniquely his, sometimes it worked as a decent movie, oftentimes not... he never reached the heights of the two directors I mention above... check out his IMDB page... quite interesting (directed 45 episodes of the old Spiderman cartoon).

Take him or leave him, like with Crumb (a valid comparison, _I_ think), who just does his thing. How much of Crumb's work is really significant? The earlier stuff I guess. Is it the overall body of work? Or just the idea of him doing it, endlessly drawing in that style?

That's how I feel about Bakshi. His failures are nothing to light up the night for with critical rocket fire.

Ansley said...

Cruising is a damn good film.. a bizare film.. an interesting film.. excellent soundtrack.. pacino's most puzzling performance.. definitely not a failure..

John said...

Well, it's not horrible... it's watchable... I think the filmmakers were far too taken with what they felt was the "groundbreaking coolness" of depicting the gay S&M scene. It felt like that was the main reason for the film's existence. And the ending didn't work for me; it felt like a parody of a "controversial" ending.

Ansley said...

They did a lot of weird things with the sound in that film.. for instance every scene had an ubiquitous sound of crinkling leather.. and characters were dubbed by different actors.. giving one a sense of unreality.. the whole movie is unreal.. its definitely interesting..